Kelly connects with Ron Johnson, best known for creating the Apple Stores, working directly for Steve Jobs while serving as a member of Apple’s executive team. Prior to his time at Apple, Ron was highly regarded for the work he did with Michael Graves to bring good design to all as a merchant leader at Target; their collaboration set the stage for the brand’s hundreds of later design partnerships and cemented Target as America’s premier upscale discount retailer. He has a new book, “Shop Different: How Retail Revealed Apple’s Genius.”  

You talk early in the book about conversations with Steve Jobs that required you to be fully present, relinquish control and truly dream big together. All those ideas are tenants of improvisation. 

“Exactly. Yeah, it’s amazing. It’s so interesting, I never thought of Steve as an improv guy. But Steve had this view; he wanted to get people in a room, a small group of people from diverse personal geographies, different lived lives. And he wanted to sit there and tackle really hard problems, but you couldn’t bring any foregone conclusions. You wouldn’t come there to try to persuade someone on your opinion. You’d go there to let the conversation reveal the answer. And that’s all we did with Steve. He met in conversation.” 

You say in the book that you knew you were unconditionally loved as a child and what a gift that was for you. 

“I remember something when I was three or four. I was literally in the principal’s office, not because I was in trouble, because I was interviewing to see if I could start school a year early or a few months early. And the principal asked me a question. She said, ‘Ron, what color is George Washington’s white horse?’ And I looked at my mom and I thought about it. I said, ‘Black.’ And you know, somehow I got into school. But as we walked out that day, I remember standing outside the school. My first memory, my mom reaching down, hands on my shoulders, saying, ‘Ronnie, no matter what happens, I will always love you.’ You know? So, my first memory is failing and being unconditionally loved.” 

There’s a tension in the book around your devotion to kindness as a leadership trait and Steve Jobs who was notoriously difficult. 

“When you have success like Steve had at a young age, I think he was 24 when Apple went public, probably younger when he, you know, created the computer. And once he tasted that success, all he wanted to do was the next great thing. After a tough time at Apple, he invented the digital movie through Pixar. Then, he comes back to Apple and the iMac is a huge hit. But Steve put so much pressure on himself because the next thing had to be better than the last. So, I really think where people think he could be difficult at times, it’s because he wasn’t kind to himself. He didn’t accept anything he would be involved with to not be perfect, and he put a lot of pressure on himself.”