In this engaging conversation, Kelly connects with Paul Eastwick to discuss his new book, ‘Bonded by Evolution,’ exploring misconceptions about love and connection. He critiques the outdated ‘Evo script’ that shapes our understanding of attraction and relationships, emphasizing the impact of modern dating practices. Eastwick highlights the fluidity of attraction, the importance of close relationships, and the science behind breakups and attachment. He advocates for a constructive approach to building relationships, recognizing the role of change and the power of listening and validation in fostering connection. 

The scientist in you found that the ‘accepted science’ on relationships was not, in fact, factually correct. 

“I do think that I’ve loved being a scientist and doing the science part of this whole endeavor. It’s exciting to ask questions about how human attraction works and about how relationships work and to kind of see where the data takes you and to argue it out in scientific journals. That’s been a blast. I’m very lucky that I’ve been able to do that. But there was something that started to happen, you know, in my sphere, like 10 years ago, when I started to notice that it wasn’t just an academic debate anymore to talk about whether the nature of human attraction was about tens and fighting it out for the best mate that you could get and being as impressive as you can be or whether it was another story about attachment and closeness and vulnerability.” 

Elaborate on the misconceptions that exist. 

“In real life, we overestimate how well those scientific ideas have held up. So, I call this the Evo script. It refers to a few pillars of the evolutionary psychology of mating that I think came to fruition in the 90s, and they were very popular, and most people are familiar with them. And in my view, the science has shown the limitations of these ideas to put it mildly. So, one of these ideas is the concept of mate value, which is really twinned with the idea that mating is a market. And we get in there, and we battle it out, and you learn whether you’re a ten or a six or two, and your fate romantically is driven by how you fall within that hierarchy. The second idea that I tackle is the idea that men and women are really, really different in the romantic realm: that men want one thing and women want something else. And it’s an intense competitive vibe between the genders because our interests are so different. And the third idea that I tackle in there is that there are short-term relationships and long-term relationships, and these are different forms of relationships, and some people are good at one and some people are good at the other, and you kind of got to pick a lane. And I think all three of these ideas that I’ve just articulated, there is a little bit of truth to some components there and a whole great number of misconceptions.” 

One of your major points in the book is simply to go to places and meet people in person and over time, you may find your mate – kind of like what happens when people take improv classes at The Second City. 

“Yeah, I mean, I did not intend to write a book that was secretly an ad for Second City improv classes, but I think maybe I did. But because it really is exactly the approach that I recommend to people. Honestly, for people who are struggling with the apps, which I think is a lot of people these days, I try to remind people, look, there was once a period of time where we would just hang out with other people for the sake of hanging out with other people. Those avenues still exist out there. What we see in the science when it comes to impression formation is that yes, there is agreement when people first meet about who’s attractive and who’s not. So, to some extent, it’s speed dating, for example. There are tens, and there are sixes, and there are twos. But what that misses is that there’s variability around those judgments. Everybody might say, I’m a six. OK, that’s the average rating I receive. But some people think I’m an eight, and some people think I’m a four. And if I go to one of your classes, what will happen is that over time, that spread gets bigger. So now some people think I’m a nine or even a 10. And some people think I’m a two. Some people are not taken with me. And that’s okay because what the market has done is the forces that created the hierarchy of mate value have weakened over time. And now there is more room for idiosyncrasy, more room for a lot of people to find somebody that there especially into and then you sort of hope that the other person is especially into you and that’s kind of where the magic happens.” 

Photo Credit: Alison Ledgerwood